It's a Matter of Perspective: Tips to Lift Mental Blocks

My name is Sandi McKenna, and this is Unforgettable Conversations. The podcast that is your roadmap to resilience, sharing, extraordinary stories from people, just like you and me who have weathered life's storms. You'll find inspiration and motivation in every episode. john Chao is one of the most inspiring individuals I've ever met. He's the host of perspective maintenance. He's a dynamic leader and a clarity coach in today's conversation. John shares tips on how changing your perspective. Can lift mental blocks and get you unstuck, freeing you to be your healthiest, most creative and fulfilled self. Now let's get this conversation started

Good morning, John. Good morning, Sandi.. You so good to see you.

It's good to see you too.

I'm so excited to talk to you today. You are the epitome of calm grace, intelligence, all the things that I love. You have a wonderful podcast, Perspective Maintenance, and you really put everything into easy bite-sized pieces of how we can all get a different perspective the same old subjects that we hear over and over, but how we can change the way we look at it and how ultimately that'll change the way we react, the way we feel. How did you get started with that? How did you decide that you were going to focus on showing another way? Another perspective to see?

Well, first of all, to send you thank you. And I feel that way about you as well. There's so many things that you have done in your life and that you're yet to do still. And I'm so glad to be a part of it in a small way. And I think there are certain things about the way that our energy levels are that we attract like-minded people. So very, very thankful to be here when it comes to being stuck. I feel like I have a PhD in it. There's a certain amount of. Everybody dispositionally are different. And I love that about people because what happens is when people have a different way of thinking and a different way of seeing things, then it opens our mind to something a little bit broader. And sometimes we will have this. Oh, I've never seen it that way before moments. And I've had quite a few of those in my life that have so radically transformed me and that it had helped me become somebody who used to get stuck a lot because of the way that I would overthink or ruminate or because I had gotten in my own way. And. It allowed me to be able to be free from that and having lived a life of being stuck a lot. And that would mean sometimes also affecting my physical body, not just mentally, but I would be so stressed out. Let's say that I would have a whole bunch of canker sores and, or even just being in a place where I could just tell that people may not enjoy being around me that much, because I wasn't able to be at my best because I was. And then being on the opposite side, somebody who was able to enjoy the freedom of the flow of creativity and how my best self keeps coming out. And my best is yet to come because of being in that state. It just really. Allowed me to see the difference between the two. And it made me very passionate, not just for me to be somebody who was able to live an unstuck life, but to be able to help other people do that as well, because it's not something that is for me to keep all to myself. This is too good. And it has to be shared with others. So how do we get unstuck? This past week I could not get myself motivated. I did things like small bites of things, but I really didn't feel like I accomplished everything I could accomplish. So when you get in that spot, how can you change or get moving? Just get out of your own way. One of the things that's the most important thing to do, and this is why I fell in love with Brene Brown's work is that when we are in a position where we're stuck, it often involves some shame on our part as well. We feel shameful that we are not able to do something. We feel shameful that we're not productive. We feel shameful that we're stuck and, and never feels good at telling somebody else that we feel. unless there's somebody who've earned the right in our lives for us to reach out to them. And this is what shame likes to do. It likes to keep things to ourselves, and that's why we have the overthinking and the ruminating and everything related to that, which only causes us to be more stuck. And the secret of disspelling that is to talk it out loud and you Sandi are a part of this creativity circle that we have, where we're able to just speak out loud what our problem is or what our stuckness is. And all of a sudden. People are able, who've earned the right to hear it because they're not judgemental. They've agreed to be in this space where they're holding space for you and wanting what's best for you. They're able to speak into your life because they've earned the right to do so. And then all of a sudden, by us speaking it out, all of a sudden it doesn't feel as big of a thing anymore. And then secondly, most of the time. And I see this with you especially, you're so creative that as you are speaking things out loud, ideas are almost formulating in your mind as you're talking. And then all of a sudden it's like, you've answered your own question before the question is almost over because there was an opportunity to let it out. And so there's a huge component of that, where there is even without hearing other people's necessarily when we know that we're able to show up and be in a space where we're not judged, where we're loved for who we are, there's no condemnation and we're able to just share what's going on. Then that helps us get ourselves on stuck really, really well, because there's a certain level of what I'm doing, where it isn't. Okay. I know how to help you get unstuck. You need to come to me all the time. I don't think that's healthy. I think what's really healthy is helping people have the tools to get themselves unstuck. And when that happens, then they can feel like they're able to get stuck at any time because they also know how to get unstuck at any time. And that doesn't feel so overwhelming, which is really great. So one of the first things is finding and, or building a community or one or two people that, you know, you can go to. There is an agreed upon boundary of what the relationship looks like. There has historical trust that is built with that person that then allows for you to share it. Once it's shared, then all of a sudden everything will just go from there and become much easier.

I know you're somebody who is a big believer in mentorship. If somebody has never had a mentor, how do you go about getting one?

There is a certain amount of, perspective, uh, from us when we are looking for a mentor that oftentimes we have the not enoughness and I think it becomes really crippling. But on the other side of any of you who are listening right now, if you've been in an opportunity to be a mentor, I know that you'll agree with me in that there's a certain part in our hearts, where we love being able to add value into somebody else's life. And so, as somebody who may be looking for a mentor right now, I think we need to have the perspective that there is somebody out there who really sees the potential in us and wants to invest in us. When we come with that perspective, when we come with that attitude and we come with that humility to say, Hey, I really admire you, what you've done with your life. I don't know if I can do anything close to that, but I know that if I'm around you, then I might be able to, some of you might rub off on me and I might be able to come into my own and fulfill my own potential just by seeing what you see and being around you and knowing how you think about things. And I don't need a lot of your time, but if you can, to an hour once every three weeks or whatever, half an hour, once every two weeks give some kind of a proposal, it would make a really big difference in my personal development. And I think when we are approaching mentorship, it's really something it's no different than let's say us listening to our favorite podcasts and that are looking for a podcast to listen to somebody that we can learn from, that their vibe is the same as our vibe. Therefore there's somebody that we can learn from or receive from, because there's that alignment that is there and then reaching out to them. So this could be a manager in a different department that you've heard really good things about their leadership. It could be somebody on social media that is just very healthy, that you see them doing something that's really incredible and you just want to pick their brain. Right now we're in the age of accessibility. We can reach almost anybody. And so for us to be very intentional in reaching out to them, maybe sending a voice note instead of an email or a video of that as an opportunity to do so, just to be able to be like, Hey, I have heard so much about you or I've listened to your content or whatever that might be really give them the reason why you want to reach out to them. And I think there will be willingness in there on their part to make space in their life for you, because ultimately that is what they're there for.

How do you nurture your creativity? Once you get unstuck, you find a mentor, how do you nurture your creativity? When I have a bout of creativities, it's unharnessed, I mean, it's just flying all over the place and I'm not very organized with it. I have lots of great ideas. I'm working on a million different things, but I am scattered. You are one of the most organized people I know. You juggle not three and four balls. You've got 10 in the air at any given time and you do it or you at least make it look effortless. So how. How do you organize? How can someone get organized so that they can really work at maximum capacity?

I think knowing ourselves makes a really big difference. One of my favorite assessments is called the Kobe assessment and essentially the Kobe assessment assesses the way that we operate as a person. And so one of the categories is quick start, which means how much information we may need to know before we feel like we can get started with something. Another category is follow-through, which is how likely are we to make something happen. And so when we understand ourselves, And we know how we operate, then we can create a system for us. And that really is the beauty of what it is that I have been doing with my coaching. And with my podcast is providing a system for people. And the system is what I call the 10 guiding principles of living in unstuck life. And these 10 guiding principles are all so different, but if we can apply them in a certain way, they're relevant to every single situation that we may come across. It's very much about having a mindset shift. So when we have a system, so let's say for example, I have a very high Quickstart, which means I need to gather a ton of information before I can feel comfortable getting started with something. If I were to know them, then I would be able to have ideas that I would be able to write down somewhere, keep it as a vault almost, and then see how I can look at details before I would be able to get started. So then I don't have them just sitting there not doing anything, or if I have very low follow-through because I have great ideas and then I want to get started but then all of a sudden it doesn't get finished, then I'll know to look for an accountability partner so that I can tell somebody, for example, I can tell people that I'm about to launch this course. That's coming up and I've given the date to people. So all of a sudden there's a fire within me to say, okay, if I don't have a very strong follow-through, well, it's not going to happen this time, because I've told everybody about it, that pressure of knowing that other people know that I'm going to do this thing. Well, it gives me the extra motivation to follow through. So depending on what it is that we might need, knowing who we are, then we can figure out, okay, what are the areas that I'm really strong in? Okay. I'm highly creative. Then what systems can I create in order for me to foster more creativity, but then. If I am, uh, not following through with what it is that I'm being creative of, that might cause me to feel disheartened. And then my creativity will be limited because I'll have a lot of self doubt knowing that I'm just an ideas person and I don't actually follow through you see that kind of self-talk it reflects within us. But if we can say to ourselves, I have lots of ideas and I can follow through because I've created a system for myself, then we can be somebody who loves ideas because ideas can come and ideas can go. But we know we almost developed the sense of intuition of which ideas we can continue with and which ideas are not yet for us to implement. I have a two-part question for you now. How can somebody find that Kobe assessment? And once you figure out what your steps are and what would work best for you personally, how do you stay organized? I mean, do you have systems in place for yourself when you're juggling all these different things at once?

How do you do that? How do you get to that part?

The Colby assessment is called it's spelled K O L B E. And the assessment that's most well known as the Kolbe assessment. So you can go to their website. There is a fee for it. It's a more complex assessment. And essentially at the end of it, you'll have your number, which is four different numbers, and you'll know which number you are in each category, which is a really fun thing to do. I highly recommended for people. I've actually been thinking about eventually becoming a, Kolbe specialists so that I can talk to people about this. The second part about organization, it really has to do with figuring out what works for you in the sense? So I'll give you an example for me, everything needs to be on my digital calendar. So I have one Google calendar is synced up with all of my different email accounts for my different things that I'm working on so that I can see on any given day, what is happening on which day. And then I plan out in my head, okay. If this week I have like Mondays and Tuesdays are for this Wednesdays and Thursdays are for this, what is it that I'm trying to do? How much time will it take and then budget that and the slotted into my schedule somewhere. One of the things that is really, really hard, especially in the beginning is not being able to know how to assess how long something will take us. And that's just by trial and error. And so for me, knowing that I can look at something and see what my week looks like allows me to be able to plan it very well. Another thing that's helped me a lot is having a work back schedule. So one of Stephen Covey's principles of the seven habits of highly effective people is begin with the end in mind. So look at the end, what is it that I'm trying to accomplish? Okay. I want to, and in this case I've said it already, but I want to launch a podcasting course. So what are the steps then that I would need to do in order to make that happen? And then work backwards? It's almost like reverse engineering something and be like, oh, okay, great. Then this means I need six weeks of runway in order to start it and then be able to implement it. If we take the time to properly do that, then we'll be able to slot in all the different steps along that six weeks into our calendar as well. So then there's a little bit of accountability on that side. So organization has a lot to do with knowing what we want to do, how long it's going to take to do it, creating a work back schedule of all the different steps that we'll need to take in order to get there and then putting it in our calendar so that we make sure that there's a time set apart for it. For example, for me, if I don't put time in my calendar to exercise is not going to happen. I know myself too well. I'm dispositioning, not somebody who just loves to be active. I need to put it into my calendar. Similarly, with anything else that we want to accomplish about whether it's for work or for personal things. If we don't put it in our calendar, we already forget, or when we do put in our calendar sometimes. So if we don't even put it on my calendar, then there's no shot even to have it done. That would be something that I would recommend. And for people to build that kind of a habit

host a lot of groups. You are a mentor to many people. I don't think there's enough hours in the day to do what you do. You do it so successfully. And so gracefully. How do you build these? You're on Instagram and you have a tremendous following of really not just people who liked your posts, but are really invested in what you have to say, because you really say some amazing things. You have a Facebook group of hundreds of people that are engaged and you're very engaged with them. How does that come about? How do you create such an engaged following on social media? Because social media is not always social, but yet you've brought the social back to social media.

I think it's also really important for us to take a look, to see what we want versus who we are. So for example, a lot of us want to have an high level of engagement on social media and yet who we are as people, and may really stress us out to have that many messages to reply to, or to have that many posts to read or to stay on top of all of these things. I really want us to realize that numbers don't mean anything. It's all about what we feel like we need in our life. And so if I'm somebody who's a little bit more introverted And interacting with people it really drains me, but having fewer and deeper relationships is what really works for me. Then I need to move in that direction because ultimately if I do what works for me, the more things that will work for me will come out. But if I try to do what works for somebody else, but it doesn't work for me that I'll only get burned out and not feel really good and compare myself and feel like I'm lesser. And why is that person able to do it? But I can't do it. And so that's a really, really important thing to know. Dispositionally I'm very blessed to be very extroverted. I get a lot of energy. I'm also an Enneagram three. I love assessments. So you'll hear a lot about them. And Enneagram is about personality type. And so an Enneagram three, is a helper. So I'm somebody who loves to help other people. And I get the most amount of satisfaction from helping others versus having my own accomplishments. I like having my own accomplishments, don't get me wrong, but when I can help other people, I feel like I'm a part of their accomplishments. And that exponentially increases my ability to be as involved in other people's lives. Because of that, I really am curious about what people are doing and there's a genuine desire to want to support them. So it does not feel very laborous for me to do so because that's just who I am as a person, but also there's been a lot of training that comes from that. Since I was a teenager I have been involved in communities where I've had a chance to help. So for example, I grew up in a church environment where as a teenager, I volunteered in the nursery because I also love playing with babies. And it was just something that was really easy for me to go there and help people and give the parents a break so that they can go to the church meetings and then I can take care of their kid or something like that. And so that kind of helpfulness. I fostered that throughout the years where I bore more and more responsibility. And I tried to look at what people need and put myself, insert myself there where I can to take care of one of their needs. And this goes into social media. Looking at if somebody posts something, it means that it matters to them. The annoying thing about social media is that sometimes we have to post things that matter to other people, not to matter to ourselves, but then we have some people who post things that matter to them and then they don't get as much traction. And so I look at what they post and say, okay, what is it that they need? Why did they post. And then I try to write something that is thoughtful and to express to them that I see and understand why they posted this and that what they're posting has value. And when that happens, we're developing a relationship with people. To say, I see you. I hear you. What you're posting matters, not just to you, but also to me, when that happens, then there is a loyalty or that is being built between people where then they also genuinely want to reciprocate with you. The law of reciprocity is huge. I take a lot of pride in taking the time to not just put a couple of emojis and respond to some of these posts or to like it, but to read their captions or to watch the whole reel and then comments, something that is a thoughtful, it takes very little effort. And I think a lot of times we try to rush things to be like, okay, I'm going to try to be on instagram for 15 minutes. Therefore I'm going to try to like as many posts as I can, like are and whatnot. But what if we also slowed down and say, okay, I have 15 minutes. I'm going to have to really look at some of these posts, thoughtfully comment on, because when we do that, we're not just looking at, they're not the only ones who see it. The other people who follow them also see our comments. And this is our personal branding. When we are then seen and known as the person who cares about other people, it represents who we are and people are attracted to energy and people will be attracted to who we are because they know that we're not there for our own purposes. We're there for other people's purposes.

You also have a very successful coaching practice. What is it like for somebody who becomes a part of that practice?

Because of what we were just talking about it flows very naturally to coaching because a lot of times, and me included, I'm not able to see myself clearly. Oftentimes other people can see me much more clearly. So I really enjoy being a mirror to somebody else. For example, I have my godbrother. He is somebody who, when we had first moved to Toronto as a family, my family was connected to their family and he is just this wonderful Irish guy, very smart. And he's a lawyer. He is also a musician and a painter and just everything that I could imagine being the ultimate man could be. And I was fortunate enough to help dress him for his wedding because I worked in the fashion industry at that time. And I made him custom suit and we were discussing all the elements of what he wanted his outfit to look like. At one point he said, I really feel like wearing suspenders, but I don't know if I can pull them off the way that you can pull them off. And I looked at him with audacity of my eyes and I said, Jeff, if you looked at you the way that I looked at you, you would realize that you could pull off whatever the heck you want to pull off. Because in my mind, he was the ultimate man and the ultimate fashion person and the ultimate everything. And I see him being capable of all of these different things. Sometimes we don't look at ourselves very accurately. We see ourselves with limitation. We see ourselves with doubt, but if we can find somebody who sees us accurately for who we are, the potential of who we can be, not falsely, not delusional, but realistically, have the ability to see that. Then by spending time with them, we're able to unlock more of who we are much more accurately. And this is the beauty of coaching. Coaching is spending time with people and I'm very fortunate to be in a space where I don't need to know anything about their industry. I just need to know who they are, what they want to accomplish, where they want to be, and then help them get there. And that is so rewarding in so many ways, because at the end of the day, they'll be who they've always known. They could be, but they weren't able to get them there themselves. And they needed some support that I'm fortunate to be that person in that case to provide that support for them to enjoy their bigger and better life.

And speaking of support, you have a podcast, perspective maintenance. And as a result of that journey of creating this really incredible podcast, you have also created a course to teach people who have the desire to create a podcast, and it's starting in June. So tell me about the course and what people can expect who the course is for? Why somebody should, join the course and what they can expect throughout the eight week journey of that course. It's radical to think about what comes into our life. And usually we might think of this as people sometimes will be like, oh, I don't know what I would have done in my life before I've met you. Interestingly enough, podcasting is kind of like that for me, podcasting, wasn't really a part of my world or even my consciousness before six months ago. And somehow I very randomly met somebody who then disappear from my life really quickly. But from that person, I met a podcaster who then eventually had on as a guest, the person that I would eventually learn podcasting from. So all of a sudden podcasting came into my life. And for a long time, I had wanted a way to express myself, to express the things that mattered to me, to be able to have an outlet for creativity, because I was working in a place where I wasn't able to be as creative for myself. And I had all these things in me that I know has value to somebody out there. I don't know who it is, but if I were to create it and put it out there, then they will be able to find it. And this is why I really believe in being able to help other people learn how to podcast, because if you're listening right now, you'll know that the random things that have happened in your life leading up to today, don't really feel so random. You'll have moments where you look back and be like, wow, okay, this is why this happened. And this is why this happened because of all of those things, they were all meant to happen so that you can share your experience and help somebody. There is no way that you can share your story and another human being on this earth, would not resonate with it. There's no way it's impossible. We all have so much more in common than we realize, but we keep it to ourselves because we think that we're the only ones and that if we say something, we're going to seem crazy, but that's not the case at all. And this is the beauty of being able to start your own podcast. There are certain things that you've gone through certain life experiences that you have certain skill sets that you've developed that other people aspire to. And by sharing what you have, and the perspective that you have on that and teaching people the way that you have learned things that would help them exponentially. And so this can all be done through a podcast. Podcasting can just like anything else it's something that is required to be learned. And so then why not learn from somebody who has gone through the ins and outs and the complexities and figuring things out. One of the positions that I feel very privileged on is I had an opportunity to learn from somebody who has one of the top 15 podcasts in their category, which is incredible. Yet teaching podcasting isn't her main thing. Doing podcasting is our main thing. So then I was able to learn from the course and then see what she does, and then develop a course on my own to be able to then pass on everything that I learned and didn't learn and had to learn on my own and learn through a lot of other people as well, into a more comprehensive course for people who are interested in starting, has an idea, a concept, but wants to be able to be at a place where they're so comfortable with launching and have all the skillsets in between.

For example, we're going to talk about why your show exists and the big picture of things, but we're also going to give people an opportunity to learn how to speak well and articulate and record themselves. So they're going to record a mini solo episode of them speaking on their own, which is oftentimes quite hard to do and receive actual feedback so that they can know which areas they need to improve. They'll also have an opportunity to interview a friend or family member to get an idea of what it feels like. Sandi, you make interviewing so effortless, but it's an art, it's a skill set that most people need to develop. They'll also interview somebody else who's taking the course to learn what their story is. Then they'll have an opportunity to be interviewed by somebody. So they'll know what it's like to be on the other side. And all of these different things will allow somebody to feel like they've been given a comprehensive idea of how to get started so that once this course is over, they'll have done a couple of things already and feel like they're equipped to be able to move on, and continue on their own, of course, with ongoing support. Because even today I started podcasting with a bunch of people and I'm still on weekly calls and supporting them, helping them grow their podcasts, because I just don't believe in doing this by myself. And I think together we're all stronger because a rising tide lifts all boats. That's kind of my motto in life. And I really see it happening.

So what makes this course different because there are other podcasts courses out there. You took one, I took one. So what makes this course that you're doing for up and coming podcasters people with a dream what's going to make it different from any of the other courses they might take?

One of the things that I think is a very different is having these realistic expectations. And I think one of the hard parts about what people typically do when they're trying to sell a course is that they promised the sun and the moon. And of course, depending on who the person is taking the course, they might be able to achieve a certain thing. I'm just a very realistic person. And so a lot of the people who are selling these courses, they will be able to promise something like the ability for you to monetize your podcast right away. Well, that isn't totally realistic. For some people that might be realistic, but if that's promised to everybody that, and there are unmet expectations that I would feel so guilty as a person who have taken money from people to teach them something for them to not be able to fulfill what they ultimately thought that they were buying into. So for me, transparency is everything. I will teach you how to monetize. I'll ask you to have a specialist come in, who is specializing in partnerships and sponsorships. And she's had two seasons of her podcast be fully sponsored and she's being paid right now by these sponsors to be able to do her podcasts and help her community. I'm going to bring somebody in who is really good at that. If that applies to you and it works out for the kind of podcast that you're doing, then that's wonderful. But realistically, in the course that was going to be provided it will be very transparent. Hey, this is all the costs of all the different things that you might need to invest in, in order to do a podcast well. There will be the no surprises. It's not like, oh, I'm starting a podcast. Okay. Now I got to spend money on a microphone or I've got to to spend money on a webcam. Oh, but what about design? Do I need to spend money on a program to design something? Oh, w what about editing? Do I need to spend money? And then before we know, and all of a sudden podcasting can be very expensive, but it doesn't need to be if the right tools, the right resources are presented to you. Then also a list of all the different things that are recommended, recording platforms, editing platforms, and then you'll know, okay, this is how much I may need to budget in order to have a really high level high quality podcasts. It's about presenting that. And I think that is where I really do stand apart besides the support that you're going to get and the kind of learning environment that you're going to get and the friends that you're going to make in your life because of the community that we're building through this, besides all of those, which are wonderful and that's already so important in itself, you'll have the ability to be walked through something with enough information for you to know how to move forward, how much money you might be spending in investing in this, how much support you might need after this to keep going and then have this actually be a part of your life. So it's not something that is a great idea that then you spend some money to learn how to do, and then it's not going to be in your life four or five months from now. My goal is to make sure that everybody who starts a podcast knows how to stay in a place where they feel passionate to continue their podcasts, have the resources to feel unstuck when they do feel stuck with their podcasts and then be able to have this as a part of their life for however long that they decide not to stop because they just feel unmotivated and they feel stuck and they don't know what to do. That'll never happen with my course in my community.

Who is this course for? Who would you think would be your perfect client?

I think the perfect client would be somebody who really feels like they want to connect with people and that they really want to share something. If you feel like there's something bubbling up within you, that you just don't really have a space where you get to speak out what your experience has been, where there's something that you're very passionate about but you don't quite know how to share it. Then this is a wonderful thing for you, whether you have a full-time job and you feel like that's not really relevant to the passions that you have in your life, and you really want to have a space to discuss what you want to discuss, or whether you're a stay at home mom who have so much experience and maybe is so passionate about parenting or any topic that you may have a psychology or personal development. These are all areas where, depending on what you care about, you can make a podcast about that. And I would say anybody who feels like they really want to express something. Then this is their, they're the ideal person for this course. If you're still trying to figure out what you want to talk about, then there may be a little bit of soul searching that could happen. And if you wanted to have a one-on-one call with me to figure that out before you spend the time and the money to take this course, that would be more ideal because I want you to be able to hit the ground running so that you're set up for success. And so you can go to the John collective.com, book a call with me to figure out what you may want to talk about if you feel unsure. Because when we start the first class, we're going to be in one sense of full steam ahead and allowing you to feel equipped and learn how to do this podcasting thing and being set up well is a really big part of that.

It sounds like it might be also perfect for a small business owner. Just say if somebody has a deli and they want to talk about, you know, different ways to make sandwiches and it could promote their business as well.

A hundred percent. There's nothing quite like podcasting to give exposure to a business. And what's really neat is that a lot of times businesses have a hard time being known for who they are. And podcasting gives people a different perspective of who they are, the story that they have, the why that they're there. If you're somebody who'd love. Deli meat. And you understand a why a meat from Italy, it tastes different. Like why prosciutto tastes different from here versus there, there are people who are going to appreciate that, and they'll want to only shop with you because you understand your craft more than other people. So definitely for small businesses or for big businesses. I mean, so many large corporations are getting into podcasting. Peloton just got into podcasting. It's radical how many people are seeing that as a venue for marketing that is different than traditional marketing. And this is something definitely to invest in because it not only builds the brand of the business. It also builds your personal brand and the two of them go hand in hand with your future success.

Well, that sounds like the perfect way to end the show today, John, thank you so much. I will put all of your information in the show notes where people can find your podcast course, how they can get in touch with you for coaching or just for a quick call to see if you're a good fit for them.

Yes. Thank you so much. And I really thank you for being somebody who knows how to hold space for people. And you really listen actively when people are sharing what they're going through. I've listened to so many of your episodes where you just know what questions to ask and not because you planned it per se, but you're actively listening and you're invested in the people that you're interviewing. And I really appreciate that. Thank you for inviting me here.

Thank you.

Wow. John's energy is contagious. He's opened my eyes to seeing things in a new way if you're stuck in need a refresh the perspective maintenance podcast is an invaluable resource. All the links on where you can find John or in the show notes below. Until we talk again, have a wonderful week.